Hume, in the Introduction to his Dialogues on Natural Religion, says that the dialogue form is particularly well-suited to the discussion of philosophical questions that are important but not capable of definitive resolution. Political questions are therefore perfect examples of problems that can best be explored through a dialogue mode of exploration. Of the class of political problems none are more important in the contemporary world than problems of moral and material equality. How they are solved decisively impacts the quality and richness of people’s lives, but, despite their practical significance, rigorous deductive arguments will not solve them. Valid deductive arguments can be constructed in support of diametrically opposed conclusions because all one needs to do to construct a valid argument is to follow the rules of inference from one’s premises. Politics, however, stems from differences about the truth of premises which in turn stem from substantively different assumptions about what is most valuable in life. if there is any argumentative solution to political problems then there must be confrontation between these opposed assumptions, and that is exactly what dialogue permits.
Nevertheless, most political philosophy, including my own contributions, is written as if all one needs to do to change people’s minds is show how cleanly one’s preferred conclusion follows from one’s own premises. When one writes a book one tries to achieve closure (even if one acknowledges that there is always more to say on an issue, the whole point of a book is to draw a circle of argument around at least one dimension of the problem). A dialogue, even a written transcription like the recently published discussion between Thomas Piketty and Michael Sandel, is a welcome departure from the typical academic treatment of political problems. Dialogue is alive and open in a way an academic book is not. People reason more loosely when they speak, and because they reason more loosely, there is space for the partner to interject, question, contest, and suggest alternative routes. There is also more space for the reader to both think along with and against the grain of the ideas that emerge in the back and forth.
Equality: What it is and Why it Matters is an edited transcript of a discussion between political economist Thomas Piketty and philosopher Michael Sandel hosted by The Paris School of Economics on May 20, 2024. Piketty’s reputation has been growing since his Capital in the Twenty-First Century re-grounded the increasingly abstract models of academic economics in the historical substance of human productive activity that had once been the province of classical political economy. Political economy was less about quantitative modelling and more about the values that govern the choices of alternative modes of producing and distributing the wealth created through productive labour. Piketty has consciously re-situated his work in that tradition.
Michael Sandel has been a central figure in American political philosophy for the past forty years. He initially made his name as a ‘communitarian’ critic of John Rawls, but I find the term ‘communitarian’ unfortunately vague. Sandel’s main argument, elaborated here in relation to contemporary problems of right-wing populism, is that questions of rights and distributive justice cannot be abstracted from questions about shared social purposes, values, and interpretations of the good. The philosophical need to give labels to positions ended up calling those sorts of argument “communitarian” in contrast to Rawls’ Kantian-liberal emphasis on a conception of individuals abstracted from concrete social and cultural traditions. My problem with the “communitarian’ label is that it cannot distinguish between radically different conceptions of the importance of communities. Fascists and communists, Burkean conservatives and Gadamerian phenomenologists, not to mention many liberals, would agree with that claim, but for different reasons, and with very different political implications. Applying the same generic term obscures these differences rather than capture– as a good definition should- the differentia specifica of a position. Sandel’s own position is best understood as an intervention into the specific problems of American liberalism. His primary concern as becomes evident here, is to situate the American debate about individual justice in the soil of American political history and traditions rather than abstract premises about what human beings in the abstract deserve.
The editors decided to break the flow of the conversation into nine topical divisions: a decision I wish they had not taken. The conversation has been skillfully edited to preserve the organic flow of the discussion from one topic into the next and I would have preferred that editors had trusted the reader to follow along and make their own analytic divisions. As I said above, the beauty of the dialogical form is the way it allows for a natural development between topics. Dialogue moves according to the logic of the participants’ interests, not abstract logical schemas. The book in only 119 small pages. Even readers with short attention spans would not have been overly taxed following the thread of ideas on their own, without the chapter divisions.
But I quibble. The discussion ranges over a number of topics related to the problems of moral and material equality, some even more salient now than when the conversation took place a year ago. Those who have followed Piketty’s development from Capital in the Twenty-First Century to A Brief History of Equality will note that he continues to move left from the rather tepid version of the Tobin Tax on international financial transactions that formed the bedrock of his practical reform proposals in his first book. He situates his argument historically, drawing hope from the long arc of historical development towards greater equality. Wealth inequality has increased since the 1990s’, but the long term political trend has been towards equality “This movement comes from social mobilization and strong, enormous political demand for equality of rights in access to what people perceive to be fundamental goods”(2) I would only add that the goods mentioned are not “perceived to be” fundamental human needs. They are fundamental human needs- life-requirements– and that is why they form the persistent basis of struggles against inequality.
Piketty then provides a robust defence of decommodification as the ultimate trajectory of the struggle for material equality. Piketty (echoing without referencing Marx) argues that inequality is a problem because it confers those with superior wealth control over the life and life-horizons of those who lack economic power. Economic power constitutes the basis of class power, and class power compromises the freedom and the dignity of those over whom it is exercised: they are reduced to the status of things, objects to be used. However, if basic life-necessities were not priced commodities then no one would need money to access them. If good lives are largely functions of need-based access to fundamental life-resources, class power would collapse and monetary inequality would cease to confer control over other people’s lives. “This is what decommodification is all about and has been historically. You take entire economic sectors out of the power of the profit motive.” (12) “If decommodification goes sufficiently far, it is clear that monetary inequality becomes almost irrelevant. So let’s assume that the economy is 99% decommodified. This will mean that 99% of goods and services, like education and health, are freely accessible.”(15) As Marx too argued, the goal of an egalitarian economy is to eliminate mathematical equality of income as a problem. When everyone has secure access to what they need, they have the all-purpose means of living the life they want to live. Self-development, not abstract equality, is the real value served by a material equal society.
Piketty takes care to distinguish his proposal from an expansion of the “welfare state.” Instead of the stigmatizing term “welfare state,” Piketty prefers “social state”(15-16). This term better captures the reason why unpriced provision of needed goods and services is just. “Welfare state” masks the reality that all wealth is produced through collective labour. Pikketty’s alternative “social state” captures this crucial economic reality masked by capitalist conceptions and structures of private property. Calling need-satisfaction the function of a welfare state makes it sounds as though something that is rightfully someone else’s is taken through taxation and given to others who have not worked for it; making re-distribution the function of a social state puts the focus on collective labour. Ruling class wealth is produced by the transformation of natural substances through collective labor into different forms with monetary value. That is the “social” in “socialism.” Without the labour of the whole of society monetary wealth would not exist. But the real value of the goods and services produced is not their money-value, but what John McMurtry calls their life-value. Decommodification is essentially the freeing of life-value from its money-form.
When one links that demand with his proposals concerning workers involvement in the governance of firms, the distance between his prescriptions for a social democratic revival and the most compelling Marxist models of a socialist economy (see for example Pat Devine’s Democracy and Economic Planning) continue to narrow. I am surprised that Piketty does not attract more positive attention on the Marxist left. I doubt that this book will change that fact, but it should.
Sandel’s major contributions concern the unique importance of equality of dignity and respect, what one could call moral equality, to good human lives. Sandel does not doubt the importance of material equality, but he argues that material equality alone cannot establish moral equality between all members of a complex national community. The discussion between Sandel and Piketty on this problem might remind some readers of the earlier debate between Axel Honneth and Nancy Fraser on essentially the same issues. Sandel’s arguments take on a new salience in the American context still grappling with the fallout of Trump’s re-election. Sandel takes pains to distance himself from the “Trump-voters-are-deplorable” explanations for his victory. Instead, he provides a powerful vindication of the dignity of working class Trump voters and argues that they voted for Trump largely because of the Democratic Party since the Clinton era has treated their concerns with disdain.
Here Sandel’s major difference with Piketty becomes clear. He concurs with Piketty’s plans for decommodification but wants to explore another side of its value. Inequality not only affects our purchasing power, it affects different groups’ standing in the community. The struggle for equality is also about struggling for different interpretations of human values and purposes; decommodification is not only about ending the power of money over human life but also about restoring dignity to practices that are cheapened when commodified. Work and education, family life and friendship, national traditions and a sense of belonging to a community are not goods whose value can be captured in a price. Sandel chastises left globalists who embraced the free market in the 1990’s for forgetting about the difference between the intrinsic value of human creative activity and relationships. He thus maintains that the left needs to pose the question of “whether putting everything up for sale cheapens or corrupts or degrades the meaning of goods, beyond obstructing access for those who cannot afford them.” (19) The problem is not only access, but what people are accessing when they access life-requirements. When education, for example, is treated as just another consumer good, its vital contribution to self-and social development is lost.
Sandel believes that the nineteenth and early twentieth century American populist movement understood that equality is not only about monetary wealth but about contesting elite disdain for the contributions and ways of life of the working class. He wants to reactivate this dimension of the American populist tradition while Piketty remains more skeptical of its contemporary potential. Piketty acknowledges that contemporary populism in Europe and America has been fed by the economic damage done by free trade and argues that capital flows need to be regulated in the interests of reconnecting economic activity to the satisfaction of needs (34). Sandel takes the worry about the destructive impacts of globalization further: unless there is respect for working classes not only as human beings in the abstract (as in Kant) but as the concrete people that they are and the actual work that they do in distinct and culturally concrete contexts they will continue to feel alienated from ruling elites and seek recognition from the Trumps of the world.
Sandel is not a Trump apologist but he does note that Trump has succeeded not just by promising to return manufacturing industries to the Rust Belt: his Make American Great Again slogan resonates on political and cultural and not just economic levels. This side of the movement connects with the progressive side of the American populist tradition, which was “… about reclaiming power for the people from elites. … the populist strand, if it can be distinguished from the social democratic or democratic socialist strand, is less about redistribution than it is about reclaiming power, giving voice to the people …” (44) Trump is a false friend of this tradition, but the Democratic left has to understand the resonance that anti-cultural elite discourse has. Sandel suggests that figures like Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders have understood the importance of treating working class voters with respect and their strand of populism offers the best hope for the American left.
This discussion organically develops into a shared critique of meritocracy and the relative power of education to improve life-horizons. Much of the discussion about access to higher education takes on a new salience in light of Trump’s openly totalitarian assault on the independence of universities. Both Piketty and Sandel sharply criticise the social and pedagogical implications of privatized higher education and the quality gaps that it introduces between elite and public institutions. They discuss a number of alternative models of funding and access and raise questions about the governance and priorities served by private universities, especially in the United States. Neither could foresee that Trump would launch an al-out attack on educational institutions under the pretext of fighting anti-Semitism, but what stands out about the argument is that both in their own way suggest that the intellectual independence of university institutions is a good, but because they are social institutions, society they cannot claim absolute institutional autonomy. In a supreme irony, Sandel, referencing the argument of Daniel Markovitz, argues that revocation of Ivy League universities’ tax exempt status might be used as a threat to force them to change admission policies so as to make them more accessible to qualified working class students (59). Sandel does not of course argue that political power should be used to make universities fall in line with a partisan political agenda, but he does argue– rightly, in my view– that academic independence does not entail social independence. Universities, like all institutions, are creatures of social life in general, created and regulated by law to meet shared needs. If they become private fiefdoms serving the interests of the wealthiest members of society alone, then society has the right and duty to enact policies that remove barriers to access.
But there is another dimension to Sandel’s position which is more skeptical than Piketty about the overall value of higher education in a dignified human life. While he does not say so explicitly, the clear implication of Sandel’s defence of the diginty of working class lives and lifeways is that while higher education should be maximally open as a public good, it is not a necessary condition of a valuable and valued human life. The Clinton-era democrats were guilty of blaming working class victims of global political economic changes. Too often purportedly progressive voices hectored working class people for their lack of education rather than implementing just transition policies that would have replaced jobs that relocated to the Global South with new forms of meaningful work. “The problem,” they said in effect, “is not with the economic policies that we put in place. The problem is that you didn’t improve yourselves in the way that we told you to.” So it’s no wonder that many working people without university degrees were angry. Their anger was directed especially against mainstream centre-left parties that responded to inequality with what I call the “rhetoric of rising,” exhorting those left behind to better themselves by getting a degree. In a process that Piketty has also analysed and criticised, Sandel laments that formerly working class parties now “identified with the values, interests, and outlook, of the well-educated, credentialed, professional classes than with the working class. In that context, with no where else to turn, politically, “no wonder there was a backlash”( 51).
While Piketty still believes that expanding access to higher education remains an essential condition of reversing the trends towards material inequality, he agrees with Sandel that the future of the left depends upon its ability to craft a new vision of moral equality. The real threat today is not the size of people’s bank accounts in the abstract, it is the rapidly expanding gulf between social classes. Democracy cannot survive the splitting of society into separate worlds in which the majority clings to a disintegrating life raft of scraps of public services while the rich roam the world in search of speculative opportunities and pleasure. Piketty warns that “when the difference between bottom and the top is 1-50, 1-100, 1-200, then its not just money. Its really a question of dignity because it means you can buy the time of other people”(73). Time is money, but more deeply, time is life. The quality of the life of finite mortal beings is a function of the content of realized experience and activity. If your time is spent serving someone else’s goals as the object of their command then your own lifetime is permanently existentially impoverished. Inequality is not only economic, it is political– the oligarchic degradation of democracy. But the oligarchic degradation of democracy is not only political, it is existential: the negation of the freedom of the majority of people to live as subjects of their social self-conscious experience and activity by their reduction to the status of things.
Piketty believes that there solution to oligarchic drift must be international (83). Sandel, in keeping with his older belief that problems of distribution cannot be separated from questions of the good life and that questions of the good life remain relatively local, is more skeptical about the morally binding power of internationalist slogans. He urges the left to find new ways to appropriate “some of the most potent political sentiments, namely patriotism, community, and belonging” (101). I would have to side with Piketty: questions of national equality cannot be divorced from questions of international political economy, but more deeply, questions of human dignity touch on aspects of the self not reducible to distinct national and cultural traditions. Nevertheless, Sandel’s argument cannot be simply dismissed: human beings are not generic mannequins. So long as traditions, languages, and religions remain important to people, the left will go nowhere if it simply argues that the workers of the world have no country.
The dialogue ends as all dialogues do: aporetic and open to the future. Somehow solutions to the deepest political problems must reconcile different dimensions of values– material and moral equality– and reconcile opposites– local and national traditions with universal human life-requirements, values, and international solidarity. Philosophers alone in their studies might convince themselves that they can construct the principles that resolve the tensions once and for all, but that pride cannot survive the encounter with other minds. It may be in our nature to press on to agreement, as Hegel said, but discussion, debate, disagreement— dialogue– is an irreducible moment of the path towards unity. This short debate reminds us that philosophy is not a solitary pursuit but a collective striving towards answers that do not preexist the effort to work them out.